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Thread: Fantastic 10W/40 Oil Deal or What?

  1. #1
    amb67
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    Talking Fantastic 10W/40 Oil Deal or What?

    Need to change my oil soon and whilst scouring the many web sites to find the best deal on oil I came across this:

    HG Oil Deal - 10.99 for 4 Litres

    Checked out the specs and it meets with the manufacturers spec and although Aprilia recommend 15W/50 for our bikes this will be OK. As it has been said before on many threads, most Aprilia dealers use 10w/40 in the workshops anyhow.

    Gotta go know as I'm off to HG to buy a couple of cans.

  2. #2
    V_senna
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    Nothing but Motul for me, wouldn't trust cheap stuff like that.



  3. #3
    AMA Pit Boss
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    I'm with Senna................

    It might meet the specs but that doesnt mean its anygood.........I think I have a "new" name for the mighty AMB67

  4. #4
    AMA Pit Boss andirsv's Avatar
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    CAn you confirm that that is fully synthetic?? Doesn't that cause clutch slip?

  5. #5
    Baby Twin R5vmille's Avatar
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    This is from someone who's opinion I trust, with much experience and knowledge on a Ducati forum, as you'll see, there is more to oil than just meeting MINIMUM specifications..

    Oil types, grades & Motorcycle vs Automobile oils in your V twin...

    Manufacturers' Recommendation

    Most motorcycle manufacturers recommends motorcycle-specific oil, pointing out that car motor oils have been reformulated and no longer meet the needs of motorcycle engines. Oddly enough, they usually make no distinction between the use of synthetic or petroleum-based oils even though it's an established fact that synthetic oils are a better lubricant. Full synthetic oils offer truly significant advantages, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics as compared to traditional petroleum-based oils. Yada, yada, yada ...

    They also make no distinction between petroleum and synthetic oil when recommending oil change schedules even though the oil manufacturers suggest that synthetics can be run two-to-three times the mileage of petroleum oils between changes. The oil drain interval that is specified in the owner's manual is for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the engine being at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust-free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than ten miles, or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe service category, which has a shorter recommended change interval. So, manufacturers are saying to change your oil even more often anyway because no motorcycle experiences only normal service conditions.

    Consequently, longer drain intervals should not be used to balance out the higher cost of the synthetics. Synthetic oil can be considered cost-effective only if the potentially higher rebuild and repair costs associated with increased engine wear are factored in. There is no convincing evidence, so far, that synthetic oils lowers these costs in motorcycle engines.


    Anti-Wear Additives

    According to their manufacturers, motorcycle-specific oils are claimed to be formulated with additives that reduce engine wear. Specifically, they point to the use of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) as the prime anti-wear additive used in all engine oils. ZDDP, however, contains phosphorous that has a life-shortening effect on the catalysts used in exhaust emission equipment, first only on cars, but now more recently on motorcycles. So the Environmental Protection Agency mandated a reduction (from a maximum of 0.12% down to 0.10%) of anti-wear additives containing phosphorous in automobile-specific engine oils.

    It's important to note that this reduction was only required for the "energy conserving" lower oil viscosities of 0W-20 through 10W-30. The thicker oils were not required to meet this lowered phosphorus level. That is not to say that oil manufacturers won't lower the ZDDP levels in their 40 and 50 weight viscosity oils in the future. Since additives cost the oil companies money, if they feel that they can get by with less, they probably will be inclined to do so. Also, standardizing the additive packages across all viscosities would also simplify their production process. It's important to note here that, formulating oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds than is needed, simply results in unnecessary combustion chamber deposits. Which is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear compound levels even before EPA required it.

    So far however, tests have shown that automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50 (a viscosity exempted from the mandated reduction) has had no change in phosphorous level in its formulation. Further, Motorcycle Consumer News tests have shown that after the EPA-mandated reduction, Mobil 1 motorcycle-specific oil has now only about 15% more phosphorus than automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50 and about 6% more zinc.

    Keep in mind however that, even though automobile oils now contain somewhat lower levels of ZDDP, Exxon-Mobil still states that Mobil 1 automobile oils "exceed the most-demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines ... yada, yada, yada." So, where's the reason to believe that the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different? It seems clear that the current anti-wear additive levels in modern synthetics (both automotive and motorcycle blends) provide greater protection than required in any high performance motorcycle engine during the suggested oil change interval.

    The oil manufacturer's advertising that directly equates reduction in engine wear with the tiny percent changes of ZDDP in the oil is misleading the consumer at best. It's well known that majority of engine wear is known to more likely occur during the metal-to-metal contact of a cold start, an operating condition best handled by a synthetic oil's very high film strength properties. Increasing the amount of ZDDP in the oil does no good if there's no oil coating there at startup.


    Catalytic Converter Models

    The latest models are now being shipped equipped with catalytic converters. Since motorcycle-specific oils with higher levels of phosphorus are now verboten by EPA for use in these models, I'm curious what oil the bike makers will now recommend? Maybe automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50.


    Friction Modifiers

    Exxon-Mobil claims, as a selling point, that the formulation of motorcycle-specific Mobil 1 MX4T has none (?) of the oil additives called friction modifiers (usually molybdenum-based but not necessarily) that could lead to clutch slippage in some wet-clutch motorcycles. This is not an concern, of course, for dry clutch models. But, this IS supposed to be the current compelling reason to avoid some automobile-specific formulations of Mobil 1 that now contain friction modifiers to meet fuel economy mandates, when previously they did not. At it turns out, wet-clutch slippage can be a problem, and seen more often when you use the lower viscosity 10W-30 Mobil 1 and other oils that are designated "Energy-Conserving" on the bottle. As a perspective on this issue, a Oct 2000 Motorcycle Consumer News test showed that the molybdenum content of Mobil 1 MX4T motorcycle-specific oil is 5 ppm and 11 ppm for Mobil 1 15W-50 automobile-specific oil.


    Energy-Conserving Oils

    Combine a lower viscosity oil with a formulation that includes additional quantities of molybdenum-based friction modifiers and you get the Energy-Conserving designation in the API Service label on the back of the container.

    But, automobile-specific 15W-50 Mobil 1 doesn't carry this designation ... because of its higher viscosity. A higher viscosity oil's resistance to flow is the reason why automobile-specific oils that are not energy conserving have been used successfully in wet-clutch motorcycles without slippage problems. So 15W-50 Mobil 1 works fine in wet clutches. Keep in mind however, that because motor oils loose 30% (or more) of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles, you will tend toward wet-clutch slippage later if you prolong your oil change interval.


    Viscosity Retention

    A frequent marketing claim made for motorcycle-specific oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. That is, motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.

    Nevertheless, when tested by MCN, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil. Based on their test results, here's their advice:

    1. Use a synthetic oil. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific synthetics out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

    2. Change your oil more frequently, and more often than 3,000 mile intervals that is normal for cars. Motorcycles are somewhat harder on an oil's viscosity retention properties than cars. (The gears in the transmission are probably the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.)

    3. Use the Mobil 1 in the 15W-50 viscosity only. The recent reformulation of thinner viscosity versions of Mobil 1 make them inappropriate for both wet and dry clutch applications.


    Better Detergent Additives

    Exxon-Mobil claims, also as a selling point, that Mobil 1 MX4T is specifically designed for sport bike needs and therefore uses a different dispersant/detergent technology for "better high-temperature performance and engine cleanliness." Without an explanation of this technology it's hard to be specific here but one thing is certain. Water-cooled motorcycles operate at similar temperatures as cars do so this presents no obvious advantage here. The dispersant/detergent issue is probably more directed at wet-clutch designs where abrasive friction material particles are suspended in the engine lubricating oil, so there's no distinct advantage to dry-clutch motorcycles. Changing your oil frequently negates this issue.


    Marketing

    Separating the oil manufacturers' marketing hype from fact is difficult for the consumer. Given that the role of marketing is to enhance their oil's image and persuade you to switch to it, be sceptical when presented with unsupported claims.

    A tactic often taken is: more is better. In this case, if the higher levels of anti-wear compounds advertised in motorcycle specific oils are good, still more is better, right? Maybe, but using oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds - than needed - will cause increased combustion chamber deposits. That is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear levels before the government mandates intended to protect catalytic converters.

    Another approach, enhancing their product's status through premium pricing and sponsorships (that are essentially paid endorsements) are effective ways of positioning their product to convince you, the consumer, that you're getting the very best when you buy it.

    If you're not a product engineer, guidance from sources like Consumer Reports can be useful here in making informed decisions. For example, they did a quality comparison of several products a few years back and found that the less expensive products often worked the best and had the highest quality, but noted that people tended to buy the more expensive products because they thought they would be better.

    Keep in mind that your dealer's will first recommend what they sell, and it's natural to expect that they'll try to sell products with the highest profit margin, all other things being equal.


    Bottom Line

    The bottom line here is, to get the best protection, you need to change any oil frequently. Changing your oil serves to remove abrasive dust ingested from the air, from (wet) clutch wear and harmful combustion by-products from the engine that accelerate wear. Studies have shown that most motor oils loose 30% of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles.

    So for the best motorcycle engine protection, dry clutch or wet clutch, I recommend (and use) the less expensive 15W-50 weight (remember ONLY 15W-50) automobile-specific Mobil 1 and change it every 1,500 to 2,000 miles.

  6. #6
    amb67
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    That post reads like a sales pitch, well it does to me.

    This oil is semi Andi and as such shouldn't cause you any clutch issues.

    I have worked in the automotive industry for many years and spent around 15 of them on the shop floor as a technician, before this I was tinkering with engines, gearboxes and differentials from the age of 10. I consider myself to have gained extensive knowledge with regards to oils, this was provided to me by the many various oil manufacturers that tried to get me to buy their oil for the workshops. I have sent many samples away to Castrol Laboratories and the like to have detailed analysis of the chemicals within and all of them have been pretty much the same.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some absolute cracking oils out there but is it worth spending a lot more money on an oil that exceeds your requirements? Compare it to buying silk toilet paper over ASDA's own, now we know that the silk will do the job and extremely well but so does the cheapo ASDA one too, which one do you buy then?

    What I am trying to say is that I don't think that anyone makes a poor quality oil these days, most will surpass the requirements needed to protect our engines for road use and as this one has been graded as JASO MA then it will do just fine for me.

    I managed to get some IPONE 15w/50 last year for 20 delivered, does that make it rubbish?

    I will post up in a few months time to let you all know how it goes, I suspect that as HG a leading retailer in motorcycle products is putting its name on it all will be fine.

  7. #7
    jonty
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    the HG stuff is made my motul trust me !

  8. #8
    Baby Twin R5vmille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amb67 View Post
    That post reads like a sales pitch, well it does to me.

    This oil is semi Andi and as such shouldn't cause you any clutch issues.

    I have worked in the automotive industry for many years and spent around 15 of them on the shop floor as a technician, before this I was tinkering with engines, gearboxes and differentials from the age of 10. I consider myself to have gained extensive knowledge with regards to oils, this was provided to me by the many various oil manufacturers that tried to get me to buy their oil for the workshops. I have sent many samples away to Castrol Laboratories and the like to have detailed analysis of the chemicals within and all of them have been pretty much the same.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some absolute cracking oils out there but is it worth spending a lot more money on an oil that exceeds your requirements? Compare it to buying silk toilet paper over ASDA's own, now we know that the silk will do the job and extremely well but so does the cheapo ASDA one too, which one do you buy then?

    What I am trying to say is that I don't think that anyone makes a poor quality oil these days, most will surpass the requirements needed to protect our engines for road use and as this one has been graded as JASO MA then it will do just fine for me.

    I managed to get some IPONE 15w/50 last year for 20 delivered, does that make it rubbish?

    I will post up in a few months time to let you all know how it goes, I suspect that as HG a leading retailer in motorcycle products is putting its name on it all will be fine.
    I agree amb, I've also been in the trade for 20+ years and I don't think you can get a bad oil these days either.
    The point I was trying to get across is that ALL oil degrades quite quickly, whether cheap of expensive, especialy in hot running V twins with the clutch and gearbox sharing that oil.
    What IMHO is more important then the brand is that the oil is changed frequently

  9. #9
    amb67
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    Quote Originally Posted by R5vmille View Post
    I agree amb, I've also been in the trade for 20+ years and I don't think you can get a bad oil these days either.
    The point I was trying to get across is that ALL oil degrades quite quickly, whether cheap of expensive, especialy in hot running V twins with the clutch and gearbox sharing that oil.
    What IMHO is more important then the brand is that the oil is changed frequently
    Yeah, agreed with you on that one.

    My oil gets changed spot on every 3K or 12 months, usually 3K since I got the RSV. LOL

    The IPONE I put in around February this year has done well and is still pretty clean and looks like it's not degraded too badly. I am tempted to retain a sample and send it for analysis to see what the actual condition of it really is like.

    Interesting comment Jonty posted about this HG oil being Motul produce, how have you confirmed this Jonty? Although I do know that oil manufacturers produce oil for multiple brands and the only difference is the badge on the can.

  10. #10
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    I find the whole oil debate "interesting", but I think there is an element of hypocracy in what is being said.

    Your arguments are being made on the fact that it makes "specification", so therefore ANY product that makes specification will be good for the job.................so chains, tyres, sprockets etc ?

    So what come back do I have if my 10-00 oil (somebody must be making a loss to produce this) doesnt in fact do the job and the engine gets wrecked ...............I bet there will be no compensation.

    I'm sorry but I remain totally unconvinced (until totally proven otherwise), there are some things you can scrimp and save on and some things you dont.....................cheap is cheap for a reason.

  11. #11
    amb67
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    So you reckon that Silkolene, Motul, Shell, etc.... will pay you for a new engine if your engine goes bang?

    No chance mate, they'll never pay out no matter what's proven.

    The API and JASO bodies set out clearly detailed parameters for oil manufacturers to aspire to when making the oil. This is the benchmark mate and if an oil fails to achieve minimum standards it could still go on the shelves but whose going to buy an ungraded oil?

    I haven't heard of an oil produced in the last 20 years be attributed to the destruction of an engine, as long as it was designed for that engine. Usually engine failure happens because the oil level was low, overfilled, contaminated, degraded so much by infrequent changes etc....

    Anyhow, not trying to convince anyone to buy it, the less that sells the longer they'll run the offer and the cheaper it'll be for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi_rsvr View Post
    I find the whole oil debate "interesting", but I think there is an element of hypocracy in what is being said.

    Your arguments are being made on the fact that it makes "specification", so therefore ANY product that makes specification will be good for the job.................so chains, tyres, sprockets etc ?

    So what come back do I have if my 10-00 oil (somebody must be making a loss to produce this) doesnt in fact do the job and the engine gets wrecked ...............I bet there will be no compensation.

    I'm sorry but I remain totally unconvinced (until totally proven otherwise), there are some things you can scrimp and save on and some things you dont.....................cheap is cheap for a reason.

  12. #12
    Baby Twin R5vmille's Avatar
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    As amb says 'oil manufacturers produce oil for multiple brands and the only difference is the badge on the can'

    So called cheap oil is often quality oil in different packaging. HG don't have the resorses to actually make their own oil, neither do halfords, B&Q etc.. But if you are one of the big oil manufacturers you want to sell as much as possible, so why not sell the stuff in the expensive cans, then sell more in bulk to be repackaged by other distributors, it's win / win for them

  13. #13
    A303
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    What's Griff got to say on the matter? Seem to remember the oil he uses is not any flashy brand name stuff. I'm going with Alan on this one - thanks for the tip.

  14. #14
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    Well I am man enough to admit I have got this one wrong !!, having spent the entire morning here at work doing "oil quality research" , I am happy to have been convinced that I got it wrong.


    HG Oil is indeed rebottled Motul !!.

    So from now on I should be able to save some dosh at Oil change time

    There must be one hell of a profit margin in oil (and other parts for that matter)

  15. #15
    amb67
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    You wasn't wrong mate, you should know me well enough by now that if I post a bargain on here I wouldn't do so if it was gonna cause us any issues!

    Buy Buy buy

    PS. I'm telling your boss you did bugger all this morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi_rsvr View Post
    Well I am man enough to admit I have got this one wrong !!, having spent the entire morning here at work doing "oil quality research" , I am happy to have been convinced that I got it wrong.


    HG Oil is indeed rebottled Motul !!.

    So from now on I should be able to save some dosh at Oil change time

    There must be one hell of a profit margin in oil (and other parts for that matter)

  16. #16
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    Please dont tell him !!, I was supposed to be preparing evidence for a fraud case ...........which I have just finished

    But I got my priorities right if nothing else

  17. #17
    One Liter Duc Eater ukcustombike's Avatar
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    Great thread!!!

    Interesting stuff the whole oil debate, good find Alan

  18. #18
    Evil Twin stefano's Avatar
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    BTW: is the service oil and filter change an easy job?

  19. #19
    amb67
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefano View Post
    BTW: is the service oil and filter change an easy job?
    It's a relatively easy task as long as you have basic mechanical aptitude. All I would say is do not have a go at doing this yourself unless you have a torque wrench or have many years of practice in tightening bolts in aluminium casings.

    Last thing you want to do is start stripping the threads in the casings.

  20. #20
    Evil Twin stefano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amb67 View Post
    ..mechanical aptitude....torque wrench...threads....
    Hmmmm. What? Luckily I may draw on the kindness of a helpful neighbour.
    Servicing the Mille 4 times a year is beginning to make a significant dent in my wallet.

    BTW: I am now off to the Stockwell branch to get oil for my Mille and my Diversion. One of them will be half price.
    Did you lot see the money they are knocking off their helmets??
    Last edited by stefano; September 26th, 2009 at 01:06 AM.

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