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Thread: Kicking back..

  1. #1
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    Kicking back..

    (my bike is actually a Tuono....but I thought I'd post here for you guy's input...I hope that's ok?)

    ...still having problems cold starting the bike here. To bring you quickly up to speed, the battery is new...fully charged checks out in every way. As do the earths, connections & switches etc.

    It starts, and runs absolutely perfectly once warm (after say 30-40 seconds of running) The slightest touch of the starter button will fire it up.

    But that FIRST start is getting worse, and harder to achieve... now and again, it's started kicking back with a horrible, sickening 'clack' against the sprag...

    It fires, spins a few revs, then stops.
    It fires, spins a few revs, then stops.
    It fires, spins a few revs, then stops.
    It fires, spins a few revs, then stops.
    Backfire...bang!
    It fires, spins a few revs, then stops.
    Then it will catch, albeit, really lumpily...then catch proper...and thereafter, no more issues for the day.
    There is loads of go in the battery, and even at this point the starter is spinning it over like a drill..

    All vacuum hoses checked out (even the little ones)
    T/B's synched this week
    A/F ratios set spot on...
    (Cheers Griff & team!)

    I've considered the IAC valve, but the more I read about it, the less likely it seems...

    Any ideas please guys?

  2. #2
    Evil Twin
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    mine is the same in cold weather

    bit of throttle and away she goes and when warm it starts like a flash

  3. #3
    One Liter Duc Eater 2TROKE's Avatar
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    How you starting from cold you didn't say ie. full choke no throttle??
    Have you tried the thottle wide open starting procedure??
    Last edited by 2TROKE; December 28th, 2011 at 07:16 AM.

  4. #4
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2TROKE View Post
    How you starting from cold you didn't say ie. full choke no throttle??
    Have you tried the thottle wide open starting procedure??
    It's a GenII Tuono, there's no choke fitted as such.
    All that stuff is sorted by the ecu electronically (more's the pity)
    So normal startup proceedure is...key in, thumb starter on a closed throttle...and go.

    If I do introduce a few degrees of throttle, sometimes it helps, but more often, it just dies.
    Last edited by Tifa; December 28th, 2011 at 08:38 AM.

  5. #5
    One Liter Duc Eater 2TROKE's Avatar
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    Sounds deffo like cold starting issue have u checked cold starting circuit is functioning correctly??
    Have you cleaned ur plugs.....they could be dirttttttty..........like miss christina aguilera............hrrrrmrmrmmm oh sorry yes bike problems ahem

  6. #6
    Superbike Twin mak595's Avatar
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    i'm supprised Griff hasn't got to the bottom of it....

  7. #7
    Superbike Twin Sensei's Avatar
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    At about 300 RPM there is a control unit which is surppose to de-energizes the coil signal to prevent a possible kick-back in the pistons when turning the bike off ... it may be possible that your bike isn't doing this .. Kickback is someything that you really need to get sorted & sooner rather than later ...

  8. #8
    Evil Twin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    At about 300 RPM there is a control unit which is surppose to de-energizes the coil signal to prevent a possible kick-back in the pistons when turning the bike off ... it may be possible that your bike isn't doing this .. Kickback is someything that you really need to get sorted & sooner rather than later ...
    not sure about that ? and cant find anything to suggest it exists ?

    bike is FI so off means no fuel so no fire and no kick back under normal conditions ?

    might be worth running some fuel system cleaner through the bike as it may be leaky injectors and a bit of pre ignition maybe ?

    i run redex through all my new to me bikes and it usually makes an improvement on smoothness and general running
    Last edited by lonner; December 29th, 2011 at 07:19 AM.

  9. #9
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    thanks for your input fellas

    a few points from your posts...new plugs last week, and the bike wasn't cold enough when I was at Griffs to get it to play up...

    cold start issue, deffo (or in my case cold no start issue )


  10. #10
    Superbike Twin Sensei's Avatar
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    May pay to check the sprag isn't trying to reingauge it's self just before the motor has just about come to a stop & kicking the sprag back against its normal rotational direction .... this has happend to afew people with the GenII motors for some reason , at the end of the day replacing ya Sprag isn't cheap or a 10min job ... Hope you can get it sorted soon

  11. #11
    Evil Twin
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    looking on other forum this is the later bike and not the early model with fast idle on the TB's ?

    so probably the IAC valve ? and why it wont idle from cold as v90 has stated

  12. #12
    One Liter Duc Eater 2TROKE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    May pay to check the sprag isn't trying to reingauge it's self just before the motor has just about come to a stop & kicking the sprag back against its normal rotational direction .... this has happend to afew people with the GenII motors for some reason , at the end of the day replacing ya Sprag isn't cheap or a 10min job ... Hope you can get it sorted soon
    Sounds doubtful if the bike only does this when trying to start from cold .....Surely but then I'm new to these v-twins aswell

    I would rather suspect an iffy idle/coldstart circuit in the fuel injection as lonner has pointed...............causing either too rich or too lean when below a certain temperature trying too start
    Last edited by 2TROKE; December 30th, 2011 at 02:09 AM.

  13. #13
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    May pay to check the sprag isn't trying to reingauge it's self just before the motor has just about come to a stop
    ?? Unsure what you mean...sorry.

    The engine does not actually get STARTED properly....so therefore does not come to a stop.

    This is a COLD starting issue....

    The bike runs perfectly and stops perfectly once warm.

    I've had the IAC valve out, and given it a clean....it all appears to be working ok as far as I can see (white piston drops down to open ports prior to start sequence)
    Last edited by Tifa; December 30th, 2011 at 09:47 AM.

  14. #14
    Evil Twin
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    so basically it just dies a few seconds after cold starting ?

    have another check around all fuel related leccy connections like the pump stand and tilt switch (id bypass that just to be sure)

    does it seem like its not getting fuel pressure etc and could be a pump start up issue ?

    odd fault this but it will no doubt be one off them ffs jobs where its a poor connection maybe dirt in the fuel filter type things im thinking .

    if the aic valve is good and pipes are good that should rule that out.

  15. #15
    Superbike Twin Sensei's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Tifa

    The engine does not actually get STARTED properly....so therefore does not come to a stop.

    This is a COLD starting issue....

    Yes well aware this is cold start & as you say the bike doesn't just started properly !! Hence the sprag clutch hasn't gotten to a speed that it will disengauge its self from the starting process which they do once the motor speed is faster than the sprag pressure release speed ..... Heren lays your problem , you need to find why the motor isn't completing its correct start cycle .. Could suggest checking the starter is engauging correctly so as to keep the motor rotating
    for long enough to start properly , no doubt the others have more ideas about the Gen II models as I only tune & service Gen I models & only setup suspension & Oil changes on Gen II customers bikes ...

  16. #16
    One Liter Duc Eater 2TROKE's Avatar
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    Just a thought chaps when cold cos of the motor configuration it is quite hard to crank these rsv's over due to tighter tolerances cylinder - piston...........hence the need for uprated ctx/ytx14ah battery for better cold cranking.................and when warm, no troubles at all starts a treat so my point is if tifa's touno starts and fires ok when warm then surely the starter system has all gotta be ok.
    If it's trying to fire but won't when cold surely indicates what lonner pointed out problem with cold start circuit?

    Why would it start ok no probs when warm otherwise??

    Sorry for capitals could't be arsed to flick the caps off

    Just found edit sorts that out disregard last sentence
    Last edited by 2TROKE; December 30th, 2011 at 01:40 PM.

  17. #17
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    I think you can eliminate the knock sensor kicking in as the motor has to acheive 800 rpm before it becomes active which i doubt it is on the starter.

    Assuming it runs normally generally it is likely either

    Insufficient engine turn over speed - sprag slipping/not enough batt amps etc with resistance from thick cold oil.
    The ecu getting duff info - if it doesn't get the correct info then it won't compensate.

    The ignition advance and injector duration for cold start etc is all based on readings from the TPS, air temp sensor, air pressure sensor, engine temp sensor. The coolant temp is easy to check as the reading is on the dash. Does it look normal when warm as nippon sensors were known to fail (replaced by bosch).
    The Atmos sensor, Tps (throttle learning) and air temp readings can all be monitored by an axone so that might be you next best bet unless you want to pull and measure them (if you are convinced your sprag is fine).

    Try a jump on the batt if your careful. Your starter may be taking so much juice from the batt that the spark is weak.

  18. #18
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    Thanks for every ones input, v much appreciated fellas.

    Righty, let me be more specific.

    It has a brand new 14ah battery (US made 110 worth) and please believe me, it spins that motor over, (even from cold) like a dentists drill....and even after 20-30 attempts to get it running....it still has loads, and loads of grunt in reserve.....the battery is megga.....so please forget it....even when cranking, the voltage doesn't drop below 11.9v, which is as good as I've ever seen on any motorcycle....ever.

    The sprag engages perfectly every time on startup....no issues.
    As soon as the bike fires, the sprag disengages perfectly every time.
    The sprag is fine...however if it gets a few too many kickbacks it won't be.

    The bike fires, turns a few cycles...and then dies.
    I thumb the starter again she fires (every time by the way) again, turns a few cycles, then dies again
    ....and so it goes on until it finally catches...it could take up to 20-30 attempts, or maybe more

    Once the bike has been coaxed into running for just 30-40 seconds, it will start/stop/run PERFECTLY...all day...with no issues what so ever...
    Loads of power, smooth as you like and a joy to use....fuel consumption ok too.

    It's just that INITIAL start up...

    When I had it at Griffs last week, there were no error codes showing on the Axone, the temp guage reads correctly as it should, the IAC(stepper motor) appears to be working ok, and with the cover off the airbox you can see the piston dropping to clear the ports...also no stepper motor error codes either...

    Right....I'm off to find a fucking good walll to bang my head against....

    Laters fellas.

  19. #19
    Evil Twin
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    have you got a power commander fitted ?

    if you do then disconnect it as it could be that causing cold start issues .

    as you seem to have all other areas covered and are happy with the readings etc it may be cut out control unit which controls the stand ,tip ,clutch switch ,fuel pump issue ?
    could be an ecu issue at cold but id expect that to show a fault on the set up test equipment axone thing.

    if you cant sort this its a case of take it to griff and leave it so it can be started cold so readings can be tested from cold as it obviously woks fine at normal temp.

    try not to hurt your head to much lol

  20. #20
    Evil Twin Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonner View Post
    have you got a power commander fitted ?
    Nope...everything electrical is bog standard.

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